Different in a Religious Culture - Part 2

Yesterday I posed a question I think a lot about. I'm not sure an easy answer exists, but I'm going to keep asking it until I stumble on something that is sufficient. Meanwhile, I like the overall way Tim Keller starts us down that kind of thinking in an article you can find here

He says: 

"Christian community must go beyond [simple fellowship groups] to embody a 'counter-culture,' showing the world how radically different a Christian society is with regard to sex, money, and power. 

Keller argues that the very best way to stand against the culture today is to stand in opposition of the predominate idols of our culture (sex, money, power); idols that reveal themselves on both sides of the equation. 

Rather than idolizing sex or fearing sex, we live out a healthy perspective of sexuality. 

Rather than hoarding or extravagance, we promote radical generosity toward eternal investments rather than those poised for short-term gain.

Rather than seeking for power and lording it over other groups, races, and classes of people.

Then, Keller goes on to say:

In general, a church must be more deeply and practically committed to deeds of compassion and social justice than traditional liberal churches and more deeply and practically committed to evangelism and conversion than traditional fundamentalist churches. This kind of church is profoundly 'counter-intuitive' to American observers. It breaks their ability to categorize (and dismiss) it as liberal or conservative. Only this kind of church has any chance...

What do you think? I think he's on the right track...

6 comments:

John Hughes said...

Human effort, program, action, ministry, ... are all the same...they are human. What is unique is "He That Is Spiritual". A congregation that concentrates on the deeper things of the Lord towards service in the Spirit would stand out in the seminary itself. A better approach is only better if it is God's. So, the Godly result comes from Godly practices, individually and corporately. As in good management, obedience to the small things leads to success in the big things.

Enough cliques, but the point is profound.

Chris Freeland said...

John,

Obviously, you're right.

My question is more from the perspective of observability. The spiritual person should do things which are "in step with the Spirit" while being filled with the Spirit.

Can you give an example of a "Godly result" that would be so overtly different from the result a fleshly (but moral and religious) might might have that it would shine as a light among men?

John Hughes said...

One example I use in my teaching is the two Boy Scouts. Each are walking an old lady across the street, but one is in sin (any condition not in right alignment with the will of the Spirit) and one is in right alignment with the will of the Spirit. The current observer may see no difference; but the continued life practice will show up in motivation, attitude, objectives, and the like. He that is in the Spirit will not tire, seek self recognition, grow proud, arrogant, possessive, competitive, ...The one in himself will grow some or all those characteristics. Just as the historical church has. James 3 and Gal. 5 speaks to this: wisdom and character from above and human character and wisdom.

So the programs, activities, etc are not the problem, it is the question of in His will. An example, suppose a congregation has chosen to witness over gain. Or serve over grow. Gain and grow are not bad. But the Scripture clearly directs us to witness and serve. The Bible never places production on our back. Only He produces; so by doing His will, He produces as He sees fit in His own perfect will. We know that methods and practices can create a big church, maybe with a .com on its name. That is not bad if it is God's will, but if the growth is the object, I find no help for that attitude in Scripture. Witness and serve (love) is there, but not production when looking at our list of obligations.

So, Scripture has given us a guideline, seek and do His will, let Him produce to prevent too much human interference with His plan.

Sorry for the number of words and that I could not point to halos around one group of heads and not the other. But the difference is eternally profound.

John Hughes said...

One example I use in my teaching is the two Boy Scouts. Each are walking an old lady across the street, but one is in sin (any condition not in right alignment with the will of the Spirit) and one is in right alignment with the will of the Spirit. The current observer may see no difference; but the continued life practice will show up in motivation, attitude, objectives, and the like. He that is in the Spirit will not tire, seek self recognition, grow proud, arrogant, possessive, competitive, ...The one in himself will grow some or all those characteristics. Just as the historical church has from time to time in it history. James 3 and Gal. 5 speaks to this: wisdom and character from above and human character and wisdom.

So the programs, activities, etc are not the problem, it is the question of in His will. An example, suppose a congregation has chosen to witness over gain. Or serve over grow. Gain and grow are not bad. And the Scripture clearly directs us to witness and serve. The Bible never places production on our back. Only He produces; so by doing His will, He produces as He sees fit in His own perfect will. We know that methods and practices can create a big church, maybe with a .com on its name. That is not bad if it is God's will, but if the growth is the object, I find no help for that attitude in Scripture. Witness and serve (love) is there, but not production when looking at our list of obligations.

So, Scripture has given us a guideline, seek and do His will, let Him produce to prevent too much human interference with His plan.

Sorry for the number of words and that I could not point to halos around one group of heads and not the other. But the difference is eternally profound.

Chris Freeland said...

John,

Certainly we are together that nobody can do anything spiritual without the Spirit's prompting, empowering, motivating, gifting and filling. I too resist putting halos around the groups. But the point remains, Jesus and Paul both seemed to expect disciples of Jesus to live in a way that was tangibly different from the rest of the world... Not to prove they were believers but to "be ambassadors" or to "let your good works shine before men so they glorify your father in heaven."

Paul and Jesus seem to indicate that in -some way- we should live so that current observers -do- see a difference. I'm not looking for a legalistic standard, but am struggling with how a Christ-follower could be even more than simply moral in the overt way Paul and Jesus seem to expect. Again, not as a means or proof of salvation, but as an act of grace-driven obedience as a disciple in the Christian life.

John Hughes said...

I think we said the same thing unless there is a difference in Spiritual alignment and the alignment of any other part of our life. I know youn see no such distingtion.

Without the Spirit, the deciples did nothing "but fish" for fish. The life a pastor might like to see in his flock cannot be obtained outside the Spirit. Without the Spireit, It will always lead to human results. Historicly, the church did not want to trust the Spirit with the flock; so, the church creerated programs, tasks, list, ... that lead to legalkism, works, and human resultgs. When the congregation is connected to Jesus (Spiritual), then the congregation is not dependent on a man, but each person's personal obedcience to thw will of God.

Is a difference in legalism and grace seeking something already possessed, enstead of responding to something already received out of gratatude? Life's motivation is one of the differences seen. The character items I discussed earlier is the "halo".